Cell Counter

[MattyNB]

We currently count yeast cells the old fashioned way, microscope and hemocytomer. Typically, a cellar guy will end up doing 20-30 counts a day this way. This has led to discussions about automated cell counting.

Does anyone use a coulter counter or similar device? Do you recommend/not recommend them?

How much should I expect to pay for one?

[Øl-sheik]

Hi Matt,

Over the last summer I had the possibility to compare 3 different methods of counting pitching yeast as well as yeast in a young beer to determine the amount of Millions per ml as well as theire viability. I wrote a thesis on it but let me bring it to the point for you.

Counting via mikroskop and a special counting chamber is by far the cheapest choice and includes the advantage of determine the viability via a Methylen-Blue Staining. But the results show high deviation towards each other as well as to other testers. But this method should still be first choice in a small craft brewery.

Counting via the AL-counter from AL-system in Karlsruhe, an instrument which determines the amount of cells via it´s electrical resistance in solution. A big instrument, easy to handle with very precise results, but you won´t be able to determine the viability of your sample. I don´t know the price for this system but it should lie clearly above 10.000 Euros.

Counting with the Nucleocounter from chemometec, a small instruments with a fluorescenz mikroskop, which works with staining as well and gives you total amount and the viability. This system costs around 10.000 euros and would be my choice.

I know this was a short overview, but please feel free to contact me for further explaining.

[blksabbath]

I've actually played around with using these little disposable hemacytometers in my lab and they work nicely. Still not as cheap as manually counting though, but very convenient and easy to use once you get a calibration. You'd also need a centrifuge of course.
http://www.tissue-cell-culture.com/docs/TC/pcv_tube.html

hope this helps
dan

[MattyNB]

Appreciate the help, guys. I'll post if/when I find a workable solution.

[Ian.McL]

Here at Redhook we use a Z1 Coulter Counter (don't know what we paid for it). It works fine for our house ale yeast, with results well correllated with the haemacytometer. However, for a hef yeast that we also use we have to count by hand because the strain tends to stay in 4+ cell length chains, which throws off the Coulter.

...and clean it regularly.

In a couple weeks (4-19-06) a rep will come to demo a NucleoCounter YC-100. If you want I can post some info on that later...

[steveg]

I think Haemocytometer is still the best and fastest method of counting yeast, especially if you have awesome, fast and accurate technique.

I have Coulter, Aber, and Haemocytometer here and I swear I end up doing so many Haemocytometer counts anyway to calibrate these other instruments continuously, that I think these high tech instruments are a waste!

If I didn't have Coulter and Aber, I would probably do half the Haemocytometer counts that I do now!

Plus, you just can't beat a Haemocytometer for doing dead cell.

[Ian.McL]

An update regarding the feasibility of the Nucleocounter YC-100 for cell counting and viability:

It's expensive. Not just the item itself, but its consumables. For each sample tested you need a special cartridge that runs about $5 each. If you want viability you need to use two (one for the total count, one for the dead count). I don't know how much the reagents cost, but does $10 sound realistic for a single viability/count measurement? Not for us.

[MattyNB]

I think Haemocytometer i...

Plus, you just can't beat a Haemocytometer for doing dead cell.


Part of what we're trying to address is the sample variation between operators (low level QA work is done by the operators themselves), and speed up the process. What we'd probably do is get the equipment and have someone in your exact role keeping them calibrated.

You do have me thinking, though, maybe the best solution would be to use the Hemocytometer and make some changes to our system to reduce the variability.

An update regarding the feasibility of the Nucleocounter YC-100 for cell counting and viability:

It's expensive. .... I don't know how much the reagents cost, but does $10 sound realistic for a single viability/count measurement? Not for us.

If you're just using it to make sure everything is going okay, yeah that's too expensive. If you can use the data you get to optimize you fermentation time and you can put off building another cellar for a year or two, then I can see doing it, maybe.

We had a guy come by this week and show us the YC-100. We'll probably get a loaner and do an R&R on it to see if it would even be feasible.

Frankly, I'm on the fence about this.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback.

[OleZander]

Prices for the "Cartridges" correct name of which is "NucleoCassettes" líes between $ 1.9 and 2.45.
So price information on this page until now has been incorrect!
The NucleoCassettes secures: no cleaning, no settings/calibration and that the equipment is free from service as all sensitive parts like pump, piping, dyestuff, mixing, calibration and precision optics is contained in the NucleoCassettes. and then the NucleoCassettes technology secures that the instrument itself is precise and accurate, robust and portable.

Part of what we're trying to address is the sample variation between operators (low level QA work is done by the operators themselves), and speed up the process. What we'd probably do is get the equipment and have someone in your exact role keeping them calibrated.

You do have me thinking, though, maybe the best solution would be to use the Hemocytometer and make some changes to our system to reduce the variability.



If you're just using it to make sure everything is going okay, yeah that's too expensive. If you can use the data you get to optimize you fermentation time and you can put off building another cellar for a year or two, then I can see doing it, maybe.

We had a guy come by this week and show us the YC-100. We'll probably get a loaner and do an R&R on it to see if it would even be feasible.

Frankly, I'm on the fence about this.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback.