Cooling Question: Glycol vs. Cold Room

[SnowGypsy]

Hello,

I'm in the early stages of business planning for a small 30 seat brewpub. I'm planning for a 3.5 bbl system with 3 fermenters and 4 serving tanks.

Presently, I'm evaluating whether I want glycol cooled serving tanks or a cold room. What are the pros/cons of each option? Specifically, up front costs and recurring costs? How often does glycol have to be replaced?

I'm guessing glycol is preferred on the fermenters, since that seems like the only way to achieve precise temperature control for different fermentations, correct? What about the serving tanks? Would it be cheaper to go all glycol, or would it make sense to put the serving tanks in a cold room? If I have to build a cold room anyway to store a few kegs & bottles, it seems prudent to just skip the glycol on the serving tanks and put them in the cold room.

Any insights would be welcome, thanks!

[jimvgjr]

I'm guessing glycol is preferred on the fermenters, since that seems like the only way to achieve precise temperature control for different fermentations, correct? What about the serving tanks? Would it be cheaper to go all glycol, or would it make sense to put the serving tanks in a cold room? If I have to build a cold room anyway to store a few kegs & bottles, it seems prudent to just skip the glycol on the serving tanks and put them in the cold room.


Here are some pros / cons that you might consider from a chiller system manufacturer's perspective:

The non insulated & non jacketed serving tanks will be less expensive for a refrigerated room than glycol jacketed & insulated tanks.

The serving tanks will require a larger cold room and although the holding load on these tanks is minimal, these will likely be the biggest cooling load in the room. I would request pricing for a refrigerated room large enough for your keg/bottle storage only versus for a room that also would handle these serving tanks.

The glycol life shouldn't be an issue as you will already be utilizing for your fermenter cooling and possibly wort cooling.

If I was sizing a chiller system for your facility, it would likely be the same unit with or without the serving tanks on this loop. The Holding load is minimal on 4 EA 3.5 Bbl serving tanks. So your additional up front cost would be the glycol piping, solenoids, and controls for the serving tanks to be included on your glycol loop.

It is a good questions and I think you could go either way on this. Hope this helped.

Jim

[GlacierBrewing]

I worked in a brewpub that had the serving tanks in the cold room. The biggest drawback (besides having to work in the cold for lengths of time) was the cleaning of the tanks. Having to use very hot liquor to ensure sanitation resulted in increasing the rooms temp significantly thereby increasing the workload on the cold room's cooling system. Just something to ponder.....

Luck to ya'
Dave

[SnowGypsy]

Thanks, you've both given me some things to think about.

I won't know for sure until I get quotes for the glycol tanks and the extra cost to build a larger cold room. At this point I'd prefer glycol chilled tanks for the reasons Dave pointed out. Plus, it'd be nice to be able to show them off rather than have them hidden away in a cold room.

[RobZamites]

Mind you, if for some reason your glycol chiller fries, you might have warmer beer at a fater rate than the combined thermal mass of serving tanks in an insulated cooler. Just food for thought. Dick Murton's opinion (found in an earlier thread) is to go with jacketed tanks. I'm a fan of a single cooler.

[Greenbrewmonkey]

If we want to talk about things going wrong, if your cold room refrigeration should go down, your beer will warm up even faster. In the summer that nicely insulated cold room sure seems to warm up in a hurry! At least jacketed tanks will have some insulation to help keep them cool. Non-insulated tanks in a cold room, will, of course, not.

Cost wise the non-insulated tanks are cheeper, and you need a walk in for kegs anyway...but you also need a chiller for FVs, so... I don't think the added load of CTs (most of the load would come from the FVs and HE if so plumbed) to the chiller would dramatically increase either usage costs or maintenance. Non-insulated tanks and a large walk in would most likely be less expensive to install, but also a lot less fun to work in. Insulated tanks would cost more initially, but most likely save money in the long run as the cost of chilling is only where needed, not wasted on all the space in between, if you follow me.


All the best,
Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[RobZamites]

*shrug* It all balances out in the end, whatever methodology you subscribe to, take care of your equipment and it will take care of you!

[kugeman]

Speaking as some one who has problems with a glycol chiller that breaks down several times a year, I'm whole heartedly in favor of two seperate systems for cooling fermenters and brite tanks. It's pretty nice to know that when my chiller shuts down at least the brite beer will still be cold in the walk-in.

[Greenbrewmonkey]

Hello Hutch,

Yes, I suppose. I guess I had the other half of the broken system with a walk in that always seemed to have "issues". But even with a chiller that has gone down twice this year to date, I still think it is a more efficient way to go in the end. As well as a more comfortable working environment!

I guess no matter the system, a good refrigeration technician is a good friend to have.

Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[Tbrew]

I couple of extra thoughts on this thread.

Your approach to bright tank cooling can have an effect on your approach to draft line cooling. If you are able to have a short run to your taps, then cooling your serving room instead of just your tanks could allow you to install a forced air cooling system for your lines instead of a glycol python. This is not only much cheaper to install but makes changing tired lines a “breeze”. If done right, you do have the added expense of building a cold box. Not sure where the cost balance works out.

One more suggestion, if going with cooling the whole room, consider two compressor/condenser units instead of one. Size each for 75% of the total duty needed for the room (during the peak cooling times they both work…hopefully). I know this sounds like overkill but the first time you are without a cold room compressor for a few days you will be regretting not implementing redundancy as you pour foamy pitchers down the drain.

Room cooling also allows you to keg the last of a bright tank to make room and also pour guest taps etc.

Hope this helps.

[evan]

I couple of extra thoughts on this thread.

Your approach to bright tank cooling can have an effect on your approach to draft line cooling. If you are able to have a short run to your taps, then cooling your serving room instead of just your tanks could allow you to install a forced air cooling system for your lines instead of a glycol python. ==SNIP==


Can you help define "short run to your taps" for us? This might be a reality for our location instead of a python, but I have no idea what the distance limit is.

[Tbrew]

The length of run would depend primarily on 1) resistance to flow (i.e. inside diameter + turns) 3) fan power 4) air tightness 5) cold room temperature.

Unfortunately I am not a draft system installer so I don’t want to guess a maximum practical length. You should consult with an installer that is experienced with the design of a forced air draft system for a hard recommendation. I can say that I have used this system with a run distance from the fan (hose distances in cold room are irrelevant in regards to cooling) of around 20ft(6m)(10ft feed and 10ft return). This was a situation where the taps were directly above the serving room. I would say this is quite short compared to most installations.

Hope this helps.