Chocolate Stout

[tariq khan]

Hoping for some insight on adding chocolate flavour to a stout....

We're doing a chocolate stout (Cask conditioned), 15bbl batch.
We added dissolved cocoa powder in the copper at run-off (not my idea) and run-off was a nightware!!!
Has anybody used a good extract ?
any ideas ?

thanks!!!!


Tariq (Dark Star Brewery)

[Michael Murphy]

loads of chocolate and dark crystal malt and if you want that extra chocolate flavor add some good quality dark chocolate finely choped near the end of the boil. I dont think coco powder is all that good, its has lots of other ingredients in it, plus it probly floats and coats the sides of the brew kettle on run off.

[juliobrewer]

T,

I've talked with a Brewer that makes a chocolate Porter using a extract obtained from a baking supply company. I believe it is added during the transfer to the secondary before bottling. Theres also a article on the Brew Your Own website that gives some other options.

http://www.byo.com/feature/333.html

By the way are you making the trip to this side of the pond for the GCBF in Vic again? If so it's going to be a blast so come by for a beer!

Dave.

[jason.koehler]

I'll second that loading it up with some more chocolate malt will get you better results over cocoa powder, however...

I have used chocolate in 2 stouts and 1 porter, but I only used powdered cocoa once, and had the worst results of the three.

I remember doing sort of a mini-decoction with a small part of the wort, added the cocoa powder, and brought it up to a boil. I then scrapped off all the oils that floated to the stop, then reduced heat. I kept this warm on a burner so it wouldn't solidify, and then added it back in with the rest of the wort at the end of the boil.

I used a mix of plain old Baker's dark chocolate and Ghiradeli baking choclolate and had much better results than using powder.

In all three cases, the final result did have a nice, dusty, chocolately finish, the small amount of real chocolate added just gave the chocolate malt a nice smooth kick. I think it helped a bit with head retention too, nice, creamy head.

[tariq khan]

Well i'm siding with using an extract although i still have of plenty of cocoa powder left over that i don't want to waste, it's actually organic so it's not supposed to have any additives. It actually did the trick as far as flavor and aroma are concerned but like i stated earlier run-off was problematic.I used a lot of chocolate malt too...like the idea of dark crystal in there though!!!

Will post again after brainstorming with the rest of the crew here.

THANKS a lot for the tips dudes!!!

Dave,
Unfortunately not able to make it to the Canadian Beer fest this year, other non-brewing commitments and whatnot!!!

Tariq (Dark Star Brewery)

[Michael Murphy]

good luck with it, I use a little touch of roasted B to balance it all out, not too much unless you want a coffee flavor to dominate. But Chocolate and coffee go well together.

I make a chocoalte - coffe stout, with all those malts + a small amount of coffee (just so i can say its in there) and some expensive chocolate. I think its well balanced and smooth. somedays it hits me as coffee and some days I taste smooth chocolate. Perhaps something i ate with it, who knows but I think its one of our better beers.

[Capt. Bob]

This may sound off the wall....there is a product called "cocoa mulch" that is
found at Home Depot or other gardening/home improvement stores. It is nothing more than the shells of the roasted cocoa beans that are removed prior to grinding. It has a wonderfull chocotale aroma and can be added to the mash. I've used it with great results in home brewing. It works wonders for a chocolate oatmeal stout in that it adds bulk to the mash to prevent a stuck sparge.

Just an idea

Bob
Saint Somewhere Brewing
Tarpon Springs FL

[TTab]

Capt. Bob, that is a great idea. I've used cocoa mulch in my garden, but I never thought to use it in beer. How much do you add per bbl (or per gallon in homebrewing)?

[dick murton]

Why not try contacting Youngs directly - they used to (still do ??) make a chocolate beer, and very nice it was too. I doubt if they will give you any details, but you might just get an idea of the ingredients.

[jfulton]

The best chocolate beers I've come across use cocoa nibs. The nibs, being highly aromatic, will impart a wonderful chocolate aroma, but not as much flavor as you will get when adding an extract. You need to get them fresh though, from a chocolatier or specialty foods store.
The following guidelines come from a talk at the Craftbrewer's Conference from a few years ago. Daniel Del Grande and Joe Cuozzo were gracious enough to share their chocolate beer wisdom with those who attended their symposium. Together, they tested different methods of "chocolatizing" beer.
They found 1% chocolate extract to be "very noticeable" and 5% to be overwhelming. They claim Rogue is using 2.5-3.5% in their chocolate stout, which I personally love. They found that pure chocolate and powder resulted in a gritty and bitter flavor profile, not the best method. They rolled cocoa nibs(the fermented cocoa beans which are then roasted) with a bread roller, assumingly to open them up and put them in the Bright Tank in nylon mesh bags. Yes, the bright tank. They left them in contact for a week, rate of .5-1/bbl, and said no deposits were left from the nibs. They say longer than a week's contact will leave a smoky character which is not desirable.
These guys are in my good book, if not b/c of the info sharing, but also because they brought a couple of cornies full of a clean Begian Blonde style that they used nibs in. The "Dirty Blonde" was heavenly and had a delicate chocolate flavor which suited the naturally delicate profile of their blonde ale.
Hope this helps, I've got several pages of detailed notes if anyone wants anymore details. I think I outlined it fairly simply,

Jamie Fulton
The Covey Restaurant & Brewery
Fort Worth, TX

[tariq khan]

Thanks a bunch Jamie....

yes i totally agree that cocoa powder doesn't work, not happy at all with the flavour.....could you clarify the amount of "nibs" you would use per bbl ? is that pounds? going to look into getting some.

Appreciate the info on Rogue...I like their stout loads too!!!

Tariq (Dark Star Brewery)

[jfulton]

Tariq,

Use .5 lb - 2 lbs per bbl, depending upon the desired chocolate essence you need. For lighter beers, I would use less and for darker, more complex beers, more. The essence you will get from nibs will not be as pungent as that from extract so I would use more than less if you want lots of chocolate. Let me know how it turns out.

Jamie Fulton
The Covey Restaurant & Brewery
Fort Worth, TX

[Jephro]

Hey Tariq,
Did you ever use the Nibs?? What kind of results did you get?

Anyone know how the Nibs actually extract? Is it the alcohol that the flavor (oils?) extracts into? If so anyone made a tincture from Nibs?

I'm about to do my stout again, but i am getting away from the flavored coffee beans i used in it last time but still want to keep the rich chocolate flavor in it.

[tariq khan]

Jephro !

No haven't tried it yet....funny enough at my previous job in the U.K.(where we did a chocolate stout with cocoa powder), they decided to pull the plug the on the beer which I think was a good idea....

I'm at a brewpub in Canada now and would love to do a chocolate beer this fall.....my concern with using nibs is the contact time with the beer....As Jamie pointed out it should only sit on the beer for a week otherwise you'll get a smoky flavour...I don't have brite tanks just fermenters and cellartanks so this might be a challenge..............love Rogues chocolate stout so i'm inspired again

[Sulfur]

Or you could do it the way Murphy mentioned above and add it to the boil, will then be separated in the whirlpool but can still get flavor transfer I would think (a different link above details the need for caution so the choco doesn't burn onto the kettle floor). I have never tried adding chocolate to beer....but I think I will experiment a little on our stout, starting small and working my way up.

[jjs]

I have made severl chocolate stouts and used an extract with excellent results. PM me if you want some detials.

[BMXFRANK]

How much do you use and and is it expensive? What a nice touch to a dunkel-weizen!

This may sound off the wall....there is a product called "cocoa mulch" that is
found at Home Depot or other gardening/home improvement stores. It is nothing more than the shells of the roasted cocoa beans that are removed prior to grinding. It has a wonderfull chocotale aroma and can be added to the mash. I've used it with great results in home brewing. It works wonders for a chocolate oatmeal stout in that it adds bulk to the mash to prevent a stuck sparge.

Just an idea

Bob
Saint Somewhere Brewing
Tarpon Springs FL

[mtbc]

Anyone care to share a source for bulk chocolate nibs? Some limited googling turned up www.sunfood.com whose proprietor has this to say:

"People always ask me what I eat. Raw, organic Cacao Nibs and Cacao Beans are the primary food in my diet. Cacao is the superfood of the future. Cacao Nibs and Cacao Beans are truly the food of the gods, the best food ever!" -- David Wolfe, author of Naked Chocolate, Eating for Beauty, The Sunfood Diet Success System, and Amazing Grace

Figure we need some of that best ever, superfood of the future gods in our stout. Although at $11 half pound I think I know why David really likes it.

[jfulton]

I have the luxury of dealing with food purveyors :mad: - Ben E. Keith, Sysco -who come in handy on a blue moon with stuff like this. I bought Valrhona nibs that were much cheaper than the online store you mentioned, though I don't recall exactly how much, but they were not as astronomical as that! A buddy in PA said he got with a local artisanal chocolatier and they were going to supply the nibs for one of their beers (Iron Hill Brewery). I bet that's the freshest way to go for nibs!

[ogbrewer]

We have had good luck using low fat undutched cocoa powder (10 -12% fat) during the last 10 minutes of the boil of our Cocoa Cream Stout. It added a wonderful natural cocoa flavor without the astringency. Now during primary fermentation the beer tasted more like chocolate milk and was loaded with cocoa powder, but after two weeks the powder dropped out and left it's wonderful flavor behind.

I think that the real key here is the undutched low fat cocoa. Just my two cents.

Cheers,

Brian Owens
O'Fallon Brewery

[BMOOR]

used nibs from this company.
http://www.cocoasupply.com/

Good results with 20# in a 15 bbl batch. Last 15 minutes of boil.

[Jephro]

I got mine via Theo Chocolate (http://www.theochocolate.com/) in Seattle, they are very nice and helpful. Since it is for resale in the beer i got the nibs at wholesale. I don't recall the exact price but it was about $10/lb. I used 10 lbs/8bbls in the BBT for 6 days
BTW they are organic fair trade nibs too.

Hey Brian, How goes it in St Louis?? Sent you a PM

[dwollner]

Try Southern Tier Choklat it has the most chocolate flavor and aroma I've experienced. Would love to find out their secret!