PVC vs COPPER

[BrewinLou]

I read on another thread there is a debate over which to use. I can tell you from my stand point pvc is aheck of a lot cheaper here. What kind of failures are breweries experiencing? Also are ABS and PEX options?

[johnstuart]

I've done breweries in all PVC, all copper, and some a mix of both. PVC does get brittle and fittings break when cold, but if supported properly, it's fine. I do like to use galvanized or copper fittings for anything that will be fastened directly to the tank, (like in between the solenoid valve and the tank) since it's easy to accidently break these while scrubbing, or just working around the tanks.
Be careful about doing long runs of PVC, especially if it is suspended from unistrut from the ceiling. If someone or something bumps it, PVC can break at the joints.

[dast]

Hi,
I'm representing Georg Fischer LLC we have produced plastic piping systems for over 50 years and we today produce platic pipng systems in around 10 different plastic materials among them PVC & ABS.
PVC have an operating range from 32F to 140F and yes it is brittle specially if you use it below its limit. Normally your glycol have a temperature of 20F to 27 F. Of course if something happens to your glycol line and somebody get hurt then insurance will probably not cover if you used the wrong piping material.
You could use ABS but not the drainage ABS that you normally find out in the market. We have 2 ABS piping systems (COOL-FIT ABS & COOL-FIT ABS Plus)specially designed for pressurized glycol and brine systems both of them have an operating range that goes down to -40F and with a pressure rating of 150 psi. One of these systems is even pre-insulated. Price wise this ABS will be more expensive than PVC but less than Copper. Of course you maintenance cost will be lower with the plastic solution.

Regards,

Dan Stromberg
Gorg Fischer LLC
2882 Dow Avenue
Tustin, CA 92780

714-368-4196

[gitchegumee]

PVC is cheaper everywhere. Use it to save money today, and be prepared for trouble later. I'm dealing with the trouble myself now. Be sure to use LOTS of unions so that you can replace solenoid valves or broken sections. Nothing worse than pampering your brewery to make sure everything works perfectly and then your cooling system dies because of a simple component failure. If you can afford it, I think copper is the best--especially for a brewery that is growing. Unlike PVC, It can be un-soldered and refit, it withstands much higher pressures, much lower temperatures, is much more rigid, and in general a better class of building material. The best thing about copper is that once you put it together properly, you can forget about it. I hate broken stuff. The one downside is that copper transfers heat much better, so insulation is a must. And you should use dielectric unions at the tank to separate the copper lines from the stainless tank jacket. Whatever option you use, be sure to include a fine strainer in the pump discharge manifold to preclude solenoid failure.

[Sir Brewsalot]

What kind of strainers do you use, and can you provide a product link? I've got clogged solenoids on almost every tank, and am valving everything manually now.

Unfortunately, the idiot who did this kind of half-assed installation is me.

Cheers,
Scott

[Valleybrew]

I just received my delivery of Cool Fit today, It is the bomb if your into doing it right the first time and not having to worry about problems down the road. It is the classic pay me now or pay me later situation. Very easy decision for me after living with the pay me later approach for the last 13 years at our current pub..(PVC with slit foam insulation) and boy have we paid...broken lines $, lost beer $$$, drop shipment orders of glycol $$$$$$$$. Just talk to anyone who currently has it installed.

[jimvgjr]

What kind of strainers do you use, and can you provide a product link? I've got clogged solenoids on almost every tank, and am valving everything manually now.

Unfortunately, the idiot who did this kind of half-assed installation is me.

Cheers,
Scott


We have some Banjo "Y" Strainers in stock, they are pretty reasonable, around $50.00 for a 2" strainer with an 80 mesh screen. http://www.banjocorp.com/products/prod.asp?PMPN=LS200%2D80V++++++

They have a distributor list on their site too, if you want to try and find locally.

Thanks,

Jim
Pro Refrigeration Inc.

[BelgianBrewer]

Have been working with ABS lines and Armaflex insulation for years. It works great. Only in humid climates the perfect insulation installation is crucial as non insulated areas will give condensation and will make the Armaflex wet and mold will form.

I would take the route of spending money now and getting a good install.

BelgianBrewer
www.sbmbrew.com

[JoeV]

As a start up I just couldn't afford the up front cost of copper, $2.70 a foot vs. $0.318 a foot for PVC. The "cool-fit" fit product seemed like a nice middle road, but its too expensive too. I just can't justify spending my money there. So you can say you told me so, but i will just say I already knew it going into it. My fingers are crossed!

[Valleybrew]

As a start up I just couldn't afford the up front cost of copper, $2.70 a foot vs. $0.318 a foot for PVC. The "cool-fit" fit product seemed like a nice middle road, but its too expensive too. I just can't justify spending my money there. So you can say you told me so, but i will just say I already knew it going into it. My fingers are crossed!

Don't get me wrong PVC definitely will work and work well. I'm 13 years in on an install and it still works. Just have your ducks lined up for repair and maintenance issues. Strategically place shut off valves and bypass loops for repair to minimize downtime and product loss. Insulate it as well as you can and get a regular weekly spray down of all the lines and foam insulation with Quat or something similar to keep mold growth minimized. You have to focus your $$ where you can. Best of luck.

[Ted R.]

Has anyone used aquapex tubing for their glycol piping?
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=25

I have used this material in my house. It's easy to install and not too expensive.

Does anyone see any potential issues with pex for a glycol application?

[dast]

Hi,
Yes you could use pex pipe but you only have mechanical couplings. You preferable for maintenance reason would like to have a solvent cemented or braized system. You also have the size limitation, at lot of brewery installations runs in 1 1/2" pipe and 2" pipe. The 1 1/2" pipe you can get but often you have to special order and it is not so easy to install. The un-isolated COOL-FIT ABS is still about 40% less in price then the PEX and then you also have valves and fittings in the same material
Joe what size of pipe are you refering your prizes to?


Dan Strömberg
Market Segment Manager
Cooling & Refrigeration

Georg Fischer LLC
2882 Dow Avenue, Tustin, CA, 92780
Tel. (714) 368-4196, Fax. (714) 368-4197
Cellular. (951) 642 2339
dan.stromberg@georgfischer.com
www.gfpiping.com
www.cool-fit.georgfischer.com

[Buster]

Having built many different configurations over 13 years, going from 7 bbl grundies,now 60 bbl FV's, I have discovered:
PVC sucks for tank connections. The break easily and after heating and cooling tanks, the fittings begin to seep. Numerous occasions of the finger in the dyke situations!
PVC works OK for headers. Even with supports every 5 ft, we are starting to see some sagging after 5 years. Union valves for every tank in and out off the header.
After the last several tank additions, I have switched to PEX, Sharkbite brass fittings, some WIRSBO fittings and brass ball valves from the header/union valves down. The pex is very cheap in 1/2" and 3/4"(+-.30/foot). The sharkbite fittings are kind of expensive, but the price is coming down as more mfg's are making the same style. The advantage to the sharkbite fittings are that you can disconnect and reconnect w/o solvents or special tools. That way when it comes time to redo neoprene (not split!) insulation, or in our case, move tanks to a new facility, the job becomes relatively easy and if your tanks are valved properly you will experience minimal glycol loss.

My plan for our next facility is to eliminate pvc (envrionmentally irresponsible!) altogether, if possible, and keep cost with in reason. I will investigate the (ABS, not as harmful) George Fisher Cool-fit Ins and/or Non Ins. for the 2" header and then will drop to each tank with a union valve-pex- sharkbite-ball valve-brass NPT. Obviously there are more details, but that is the basics....
As I am not a schooled expert on this subject, please comment/offer advice!

Matt Vincent
matt@skabrewing.com

[liammckenna]

Must throw in my two cents here.

Let me relate a story: a couple of years back, I was developing a quite successful 'cooler' gig. Yes, cooler, you know, vodka, fruit juice, sugar etc. Anyway, during install of the mix tanks and carbo-cooler, I recall a conversation with the plumber. He quoted on the job in PVC. When I asked him to requote based on performance (98% functionality - read no leaks - for first 3 years) he came back with the same figure. He then inquired why I had posed the question. I explained to him that the solution travelling through the lines would be somewhere in the -2.0oC range and the the difference in thermal expansion coefficients between the tanks (stainless steel) and the pipework would entail leakage. He has lost some money on the deal so far and there's a year to go. I like to quote for performance. It usually pays off.

With all due respect to other contributors to this thread, I do not believe it was COOL-FIT ABS or any other low temp app. plastic. Could very well be different with such. I must admit my reservations however.

I've ripped out PVC glycol systems in 3 breweries and retrofitted with copper (all appropriate dielectric unions of course). Three things, I've found. Copper is so easy to work with and forgiving to work with that you could do it yourself, then hire your local plumber to inspect it for you. Secondly, it is so easy to add/remove/move tank connections. Thirdly, It doesn't leak. Period.

I suppose another would be that, even if the whole thing went south (so to speak), the copper would still have some significant residual value. Ha!


Pax.

Liam

[realale]

Hey guys

we just finished an expansion project and put in about 7,000 linear feet of copper from 1/2" up to 2" and used the propress system to install all the pipe ourselves. We insulated with trymar insulation with a mastic barrier all wrapped in a pvc shell for cleaning. If you factor in the cost of hiring a plumber or welder to fit the pipe compared to buying a propress tool (about $3,000), we feel like we are still ahead of the curve. Propress makes a number of different fittings from unions, valves, male pipe adapters, street ell's, 90's, etc., but expect to pay about twice what a standard sweat fitting costs. There is not a fitting that i thought that we needed that was not available, though some need to be special ordered. You can run glycol, compressed air (with a special gasket), hot water, chilled water, process water, CO2, and most any liquid or gas. Refer to the literature as to which are approved for use with propress. We are able to fit a 2" fitting in about 4 seconds, so it is pretty quick and out of the probably 1000 fittings we have installed we have only had 2 failures, both which were possibly due to an installing mistake ( it requires accurate measurements for sufficient insertion depths). The trymar insulation was also pretty pricey and applying the mastic takes alot of time, but i am confident that if you are making a long term investment that paying now is the right choice. Feel free to contact me with any questions about the propress system or refer to their website. We also purchased the Ridgid Model 122 Copper Cutting & Prep Machine which ran about $1,400, but we figured if we were going to install all that pipe ourselves we wanted to have the right tools for the job. Anyway i'm rambling but check it out before you make an investment either way. I also check out the cool-fit product at the conference this year and if you are looking for a quicker install it seems as if it is a pretty solid product, but again expect to spend more than pvc with armorflex.

brad farbstein
real ale brewing co
brad@realalebrewing.com

[JoeV]

I am using 1 1/2" PVC pipe, if memory serves it was around $3.97 for a ten foot length, and copper of that size was about $27 for a 10 foot length. The other associated cost with copper is solder and gas for the torch, and of course the torch if you don't have one, and then labor, if like me you are not a pro-pipe sweater. I find plastic easier to work with than copper. After putting all the insulation on the pipes myself, it probably brought the material cost up to ~7/foot.

[dast]

Joe,
As a comparasion the Pre-insulated COOL-FIT ABS Plus in that size will cost you 10.82$ /ft and the un-insulated COOL-FIT ABS 2.15$ /ft.
The COOL-FIT ABS is rated 150 psi down to a temperature of -40F and this with a life span of 25 years with a safety factor of 1.8. Normally you have a pressure of 30-45 psi and of course that will extend your life span.
The pre-insulated pipe have a closed cell hard Polyurhethane foam and a Polyethylene protection jacket built as a sandwich construction together with the COOL-FIT ABS pipe. This system is vapour tight and can be power washed. It is of course very easy and quick to install. It is in fact the quickest installed pre-insulated pipe available. It is also very ligth, in fact it weighs half of an un-insulated copper pipe.
COOL-FIT ABS have 4 times the impact recistance of PVC at 32 F (that is the lowest operating temperature for PVC).

Best Regards,

Dan Stromberg

Georg Fischer LLC

[jason.koehler]

Are Pre-insulated COOL-FIT ABS Plus available in Japan? We're thinking of redoing some pipework and it sounds pretty nice.

[JoeV]

I did not know that the cool fit came without insulation! Otherwise I would have much rather used cool fit un-insulated and just insulated it myself. It is actually priced lower than the PVC I was using. Well there is always the next brewery project!

[dast]

Jason,
COOL-FIT is available in Japan. It is in fact available world wide.

Dan Stromberg

Georg Fischer LLC