CIP Protocols

[FCB]

I am polling the masses. For all the years I have been a brewer and the different breweries I have worked for the CIP regime has always been the same (30 minutes caustic @ 140 degrees F, 20 minutes acid @ 85-90 degrees F and sanitizer for 10 minutes or more). This has been handed down from the chemical companies and the supervisors appointed over me. So, what do y'all think?

[GlacierBrewing]

Hi Fort Fun!
I've stuck to this protocol for 13 years: (chems from 5-star)
30 min PBW at temp
30-25 min Acid 5 at temp
10 min StarSan at temp.
This protocol was burned onto my forearm by brewing God, Sanford Jones!

Long Live Maibock!!!

Dave

[mr.jay]

FV CIP
cold rinse
NaOH 40 minutes 170 degrees
hot rinse
cool rinse
iodaphor 15 minutes 90 degrees
CO2 purge

BBT/TDV CIP
cold rinse
ClNaOH 40 minutes 140-150 degrees
hot rinse
cool rinse
iodaphor 15 minutes 90 degrees
CO2 purge

[Tash]

FV and BBT's

rinse
Caustic at 140-150 ~ for 20-25 mins
rinse
Peracetic Acid with cool water for 20 mins
no rinse

When cleaning FV's we run a loop through HX. With caustic after initial cleaning of FV. Peracetic runs during the entire cip(through HX).

Tash

[dick murton]

FV CIP
cold rinse
NaOH 40 minutes 170 degrees
hot rinse
cool rinse
iodaphor 15 minutes 90 degrees
CO2 purge

BBT/TDV CIP
cold rinse
ClNaOH 40 minutes 140-150 degrees
hot rinse
cool rinse
iodaphor 15 minutes 90 degrees
CO2 purge

You really must rinse after iodophor - it is bery easy to get tainted beer with iodine (or for that matter chlorine or bromine residues) - chlorophenolic tastes & aromas. I think you may also find it is a legislative requirement

Re peracetic acid - this must also be rinsed off in Europe.

The question is finding sterile water. ClO2 is a pretty good option, and can be used as the sterilant at higher doses as well - so you just have two dose rates, one for plant sterilisation, the other for water sterilisation.

And if using hot, say 60 C + caustic, some people the need for any form of sterilant.

Cheers

[mr.jay]

Thanks Dick. I have ClO2 as an option, perhaps I'll use that instead.

I'll bet 80% (on and off this site) of brewers don't rinse ioda. or peri. after sanitizing (I suppose a poll could firm that theory up). Iodaphor was actually marketed to me as a no-rinse sanitizer. I am sure that I am not the only one. I would like to hear/see more information on this.

[BrewinLou]

All of our tanks get the hot rinse after IOD4.

[dick murton]

Iodophor can chew its way through stainless, just like chlorine, particularly if it comes into an acid atmosphere. Many yeasrs ago we used to send beer out in bulk direct to big pubs, and the transport vessels and I think the pub vessels were cleaned with iodophor combined deterent sanitiser. We had contamination more than once when someone looked in a tank and though the brown liquid they were topping up up was beer. Needless to say it went down the drain PDQ. We always rinsed off after that, and pretty soon changed to other sterilants

[Sir Brewsalot]

Hi Fort Fun!
I've stuck to this protocol for 13 years: (chems from 5-star)
30 min PBW at temp
30-25 min Acid 5 at temp
10 min StarSan at temp.
This protocol was burned onto my forearm by brewing God, Sanford Jones!

Long Live Maibock!!!

Dave

Dave,
Doesn't the StarSan foam up like hell when you pump it? Or do you mean Saniclean?

Cheers,
Scott

[GlacierBrewing]

Dave,
Doesn't the StarSan foam up like hell when you pump it? Or do you mean Saniclean?

Cheers,
Scott

Hi Scott,
Yes, it does foam quite a bit. That is one of StarSan's pluses. It is made with the surfactant added so the foam sticks to every surface while sanitizing. I've found that if I follow the manufacturer's dilution, I can recirc it effectively in my tanks with no problem.
Dave

[canyon]

How about the European solution? What are ya'll using in Germany in particular (Reihheitsgebot) ? Steam/ heat is my favorite sanitizer and is a common no chem method but how about CIP? I've had enough of caustic etc. What about cleaning pipe lines and in particular tap lines? Pigs?? Thanks for any responses!

[mic_mac]

You really must rinse after iodophor - it is bery easy to get tainted beer with iodine (or for that matter chlorine or bromine residues) - chlorophenolic tastes & aromas. I think you may also find it is a legislative requirement

Re peracetic acid - this must also be rinsed off in Europe.

The question is finding sterile water. ClO2 is a pretty good option, and can be used as the sterilant at higher doses as well - so you just have two dose rates, one for plant sterilisation, the other for water sterilisation.

And if using hot, say 60 C + caustic, some people the need for any form of sterilant.

Cheers

Hi again Dick,
how odd, I've always been told that the joy(*) of peracetic is that it is used as a final 'terminal sterilant' - i.e. specifically not being rinsed off before the vessel is used (as it breaks down to a weak acetic acid solution?)

As to not needing to use a sterilant after hot caustic, doesn't this depend on what you are rinsing the vessel with - i.e. mains water or bore-hole that's not been UV-treated (or alternative) could introduce some slight contaminant to your spanky clean tank?

(*) perhaps "joy" is a word best kept for other matters than brewery vessel CIPing?

Hope you're doing OK,
cheers
MikeMcG
http://www.betwixt.co.uk

[mic_mac]

Apologies Dick, I'm knackered & must have missed your bit about using sterile rinse water, via ClO2, (which I've not come across before, either, like your other point about peracetic needing to be rinsed off in Europe)
cheers
MikeMcG

[Michael Murphy]

How about the European solution? What are ya'll using in Germany in particular (Reihheitsgebot) ? Steam/ heat is my favorite sanitizer and is a common no chem method but how about CIP? I've had enough of caustic etc. What about cleaning pipe lines and in particular tap lines? Pigs?? Thanks for any responses!

I employ a hot water tank flush. followed with 65C caustic CIP 30 mins or so, and usually a hot water flush as a sanitizer.

I hot water flush my hoses and tubing as a sanitizer. Occasionaly I miss the hot water and revert to a P.Acid sanitizer.

Occasionally I hit the tanks with an Acid cycle. but I am CIPing with RO water so Im not using high concentrations of alka rinser.

On the hot side, Kettle, HE, flash pasteurizer I use and acid - alka-rinse cycle.

Of course the chem salesman would like me to use an Alka- Acid-Sanitizer every time. But I dont.

[aswissbrewer]

How about the European solution?

Most breweries I know brewing to the Reinheitsgebot CIP with caustic and/or acid and sanitise. A favourite sanitiser is peracetic acid. The tanks must be rinsed with potable water shortly before use. The issue is to make sure the potable water is in order. UV, Chlorine dioxide or other treatments that, with proper use, leave no residues are valid.

Another useful, non rinse, sanitiser is Hydrogen Peroxide. After sanisation the H2O2 degrades to water. Here the big issue is safe storage and transport of the sanitiser itself. The H2O2 is a strong oxidiser and therefore a fire hazard.

Reinheitsgebot doesn't mean you don't use cleaning chemicals it means you make sure they don't end up in the beer. Just good brewing practice really.

[Michael Murphy]

I have been brewing in Europe since 2000 and I have never heard the rule where you must rinse the sanitizer prior to use. And not to be an arshole I have had more infected micro brews from Europe than I care to count. Something is wrong if you cant use advancement in bio-chemical industies becuase of an old law that no one really follows anymore anyway,at least like it was meant be. If you followed it then you wouldnt brew lagers in the summer and more silliness... Now a days many use this word to fool the public into believing that if it's Reinheitsgebot then its better.

Im all for experimentation and who cares about some 500 year old rule.. I hope people dont automaticaly assimulate the "Reinheitsgebot" to European brewing. I dont even think many German brewers really follow it any more... If I see one more Cherry Porter from germany Im going to puke...

[mic_mac]

I know it's not maybe a well-known source, but it's something that agrees with me :~)
"The food & beverage industries started to find applications for PA due to its antimicrobial properties & the abscence of toxic residues. PA is now commonly used in dairies, wineries, soft drinks plant, canneries, railroad tankers & meat & poultry processing plants The food industry values PA's nonrinse feature in high dilutions as an advantage in time & money since the breakdown products of PA do not affect taste, toxicity, or odor."

from "Liquid Chemical Sterilization" (Central Service Association of Ontario -
http://www.csao.net/files/pdfs/Liquid%20Chemical%20Sterilization.pdf
cheers
Mike McG
http://www.betwixt.co.uk

[dickshindles]

I was also taught adn told by my chemical guy that I don't have to run a rinse cycle after sanitizing with iodaphor. I usually spritz out the cone to not damage the yeast, but that was a practice I adopted myself after being told it was not necessary to begin with. I am very anal about using the correct concentrations, but it seems according to Dick, and others that this is not a good practice. I think Jaye mentioned he has switched sanitizers also. I would love to see some consensus on this topic.

[dick murton]

I have experienced beer contaminated with iodophor (and chlorine) residues from sanitisers that were not rinsed off. I know of beer being destroyed in brewery due to PAA residues affecting the flavour - probably it has to be said due to a puddle in the bottom of the tank rather than just surface film, but as a result - all sterilants get washed off. And yes, you are correct. If the terminal rinse isn't sterile, then you simply re-infect. So perhaps it is time to move on to ClO2 or possibly even ozone for certain uses, both as sterilant at highish levels, and for sterilising risne water

[GOOSE]

I like to rinse with >170f water after my sanitizer, not to get the tank hot, just use the hot liquor as the rinse, because most cold water is not sterile.

[mic_mac]

Just to try to clarify this - is there a legal EC directive instructing brewers in Europe to rinse off products such as Peracetic?

If so, there's going to be a fair few who will have to change their CIP procedures.
Cheers
Mike McG

[aswissbrewer]

Switzerland is not part of the EU but I imagine that the food hygiene laws are similar.

The swiss food hygiene laws require food manufacturers to implement HACCP (Hazard Ananysis Critical Control Points) systems which include cleaning and disinfection protocolls.
The guiding priciple for each individual foodstuff is Good Manufacturing Practice (GMP). This means for brewers that cleaning/disinfection protocolls should be implemented and maintained. The implementation must be dokumented in some form and is subject to inspection .
The disinfection protocoll must ensure that disinfestant does not come into contact with the foodstuff. How this is acheived is up to the manufacturer - or brewer. Rinsing with potable water is the usual way.

Any protocoll that does not cater for rinsing of disinfectant - PAA is included here - will not pass inspection. It may be that the tank film residues are so small as to be of no consequence, but accidents can and do happen. Food manufacturers are required by law to do their proven best to prevent such accidents.

Of course it is possible to have these protocolls and not stick to them, it's up to the brewer. IMHO that is a cop out and bad workmanship.

[Gaelicbrew]

I employ a hot water tank flush. followed with 65C caustic CIP 30 mins or so, and usually a hot water flush as a sanitizer.

I hot water flush my hoses and tubing as a sanitizer. Occasionaly I miss the hot water and revert to a P.Acid sanitizer.

Occasionally I hit the tanks with an Acid cycle. but I am CIPing with RO water so Im not using high concentrations of alka rinser.

On the hot side, Kettle, HE, flash pasteurizer I use and acid - alka-rinse cycle.

Of course the chem salesman would like me to use an Alka- Acid-Sanitizer every time. But I dont.

We do the same, HOt flush followed by caustic at 65C and then follow with 80C water. We never sterilise tanks with acid. Any bugs in the water have been killed off because the water has been heated to 100C