self-image and insecurity issues

[dickshindles]

Sorry to bring this up, but lately I've been feeling bad about my body. My customers say they like my beers, but I'm afraid they are snickering behind my back about the flavorful Weizen bock that was just a little too thin, or the....well, you get the idea.
I remember a thread about dextrin malts. I agree that they don't have much impact on the body. From my personal experience, temperature doesn't seem to make much difference either. I've noticed a difference in sweetness going from 148 to 156, but not too much with respect to body and viscosity. I'm sure there are many factors that are affecting this, but I would like to narrow them down to the culprits. I use well calcified water, and well modified malts from various sources (breiss, muntons, weyermann, etc.). Here is what I did with my W.B.:

45%wheat
45%dark munich
5%dextrin
mashed in at 156
S.G>20 plato
mashed 45 minutes, vorlauf 15 minutes
5 Bbl took 1 hour to lauter, using 170 degree sparge water.
boil 90 minutes, 10 minute whirlpool, 20 minute rest, K.O.@ 72 degrees, purified AIR @ 7 lpm, for a 25 minute knock out, fermented at 67 degrees.

Just wasn't that chewy in my opinion. This seems to be the case most of the time. No body! Any theories out there to keep my beers from wanting to kill themselves everytime they look in the mirror?

[theburden]

If you want more body, why not mash in higher?

[Bham Brewer]

You can't get much higher than 156 for mash temp... 158.. maybe 160, I've mashed at 160 but that's kind of pushing it. I'd look to my yeast's attenuation levels next.

[Brett0424]

You should be getting plenty of body at 156, especially with wheat and dextrin malts. Try using something like flaked barley. And I agree with above, maybe you have a really high attenuating house yeast?

[jason.koehler]

On the yeast front...

How long have you been using your house yeast? We've found that our house ale yeast tends to over-attenuate after about 10 batches, it gets to be really ravenous stuff! Yeast can really adapt (or mutate) to its environment! In later generations, we have been upping our mashing temp from 66 C to 68, it seems to help a great deal.

Also, if you're using multiple strains, you could have some cross contamination as well that is causing a lack in body. I remember once we had a bad problem with our ale yeast getting contaminated with lager yeast, so it just kept munching away our amber ale until it was bone dry...

Nobody mentioned water profiles as well, have you thought about trying some brewing salts to add a little mouthfeel?

My experience with dextrin malts is that in small batch brewing, they can be fairly effective, but they haven't seemed to scale for me. When I first started doing commercial brews last year, I tried including some dextrin malts in every brew and found them to be no help.

[crassbrauer]

You're hitting neither amylase optimum with your mash program and giving undesirable enzymes a chance to do their thing. Ideally, for a Weizenbock with 50% wheat malt in the grist you should mash in at around 122F and stay there for 10 - 15 min, then raise the temperature to 144F and stay there for 15 - 30 min, then raise it again (2 F per min) to 162F and stay there until your iodine test is negative (15 - 30 min), then mash out.

Afterwards, you should aerate in-line after the wort cooler as usual, then aerate in the fermenter a few hours later, to let the yeast reproduce some more for the heavy task ahead of them. I assume you're using Bavarian wheat beer yeast? As was mentioned above, make sure your yeast is healthy and not old, because you're putting them in a very stressful environment.

Body comes primarily from protein, so whether you're attenuating all the way or not is not the issue. If you're not attenuating all the way, you are, however, giving wort/beer spoilers a foothold which can ultimately bring about poor body (and head retention among other things). Wheat malt has its protein locked up, so maybe you should think of a way to hit those lower temperatures. My only suggestion for improving your mash program, if you have a mash/lauter set-up, is to mash in thick and hit at least 144F and then add hot water to get up to 162F, which would include both amylase optima at the very least. You're not brewing a standard gravity pale ale, so all the parameters are going to be different. Good luck, though!

[dickshindles]

crass, that makes alot of sense, however, my brewery is not set up to do step mashing. believe me, i tried it in the past, and almost quit my job when i finished the process unsuccessfully. my m.t. is not jacketed, and the way the inlets and outlets are networked, and my b.k. is jacketed, it ain't happenin.'
It has always been my understanding that highly modified malts do not benefit from decoction or step mashing, and that it can actually be detrimental to the malt. probably another rumor started by someone like myself, who has been unsuccessful with this in the past.
how about my mash times? according to previous threads, that seems to be an issue.
perhaps w.b. is not a good style for me to make in my brewhouse. i still have to make heffes, though. my client base can't go without them. so is there an optimal temp/ mash time for a chewy wheat beer, or am i dreaming here?

[crassbrauer]

It has always been my understanding that highly modified malts do not benefit from decoction or step mashing, and that it can actually be detrimental to the malt. probably another rumor started by someone like myself, who has been unsuccessful with this in the past.
how about my mash times? according to previous threads, that seems to be an issue.
perhaps w.b. is not a good style for me to make in my brewhouse. i still have to make heffes, though. my client base can't go without them. so is there an optimal temp/ mash time for a chewy wheat beer, or am i dreaming here?

Decoction shouldn't be rigidly associated with step mashing. Decoction is really just unnecessary nowadays. It should only be done for "decoction flavor" for people with lots of time in their day and money to waste on energy. Step mashing, however, is still very necessary. The only beers you can successfully and authentically brew at a single temperature are British ales with British malt. British malt or malt created in the style of British maltsters is very over-modified (among other things) for Continental-style brewing purposes. Therefore, it depends upon what kind of malt you're using. Of course, you're using wheat malt and a lot of it, as well. This requires more intensive mashing. I used to brew on an old mash/lauter system (without an agitator - I used a wooden shovel for agitation and a hockey stick as "the knives"). I found that mashing in thick at 122F and adding 200+F degree water (carefully, with lots of agitation) to reach around 162F resulted in better lagers for me. You can probably dilute up to 1:5 without damaging the enzymes, if your mash tun has the capacity.

Of course, this does not include a protein rest for the wheat malt in your wheat bock. You can probably get away with it, as long as lautering is not a problem. Is your mash pH around 5.2? Really, the last thing that should be troubling you is "no body" with 50% wheat malt. Are your yeast healthy and raring to go at when you pitch them? I'd only use freshly grown up yeast and a lot of them for a Weizenbock. I would be sure and try the two rest approach, too. By the way, how's your milling? If these recommendations don't improve your beer, along with a late aeration (see above post), then maybe someone on this forum can think of something else that's not occurring to me at the moment...

[Bham Brewer]

Step mashing, however, is still very necessary. The only beers you can successfully and authentically brew at a single temperature are British ales with British malt. British malt or malt created in the style of British maltsters is very over-modified (among other things) for Continental-style brewing purposes. Therefore, it depends upon what kind of malt you're using. Of course, you're using wheat malt and a lot of it, as well. This requires more intensive mashing.

I was going to keep back from another comment here, but I'm sorry, I can't. The malts that are being produced by American maltsters will work just fine using single infusion mashing to produce continental beers, thank you very much. I have done it, repeatedly, successfully, to the accolades of my native German clientele (Alabama has a large German population thanks to Mercedes), as well as a German trained brewmaster who told me my dunkelweizen was not only better than his, but the best he had ever tasted... I have used single infusion mashing, at 158F to produce bohemian pils, munich helles and dunkel, weizen, dunkel weizen (50% red wheat malt for both), maibock, doppelbock, schwarzbier and oktoberfest. The beers always received high praise from the persons mentioned above.. particularly pertaining to the body and rich, full malt flavors. While I was trained in American/British ale brewing I have found my talents seem to be in the continental beers.

It is about RESULTS, not technique... if you know your brewhouse, know your ingredients and how to use them you will not have to go through all the extra effort required for complicated mashing techniques.

[crassbrauer]

I commend you on your success and will try to book my next flight going west over the closest airport to your brewpub, so I can pop in and try your beers myself. I look forward to it. It is indeed rare to find lagers amongst US craft brewers that taste like Continental ones. There are some great lagers out there, though. I've found, they have their own sort of American spin on them, either through ingredients or technique. I think it's good that way too, because it increases the diversity in the American and the global beer markets and like with English and Belgian-inspired American styles, American craft lagers have sort of taken on a life of their own (Steam beer being the most obvious example).

Anyway, I am merely stating what brewing scientists have already proven: hitting the two amylase rests and avoiding the middle produces better Continental-style beers. That's not a debating point anymore, and it has been my experience, as well. There are of course other factors involved, among them, the type of malt you use, the mash pH, your water treatment, your yeast handling, your fermentation and lagering time and temperatures, etc., etc., - the list goes on. It sounds like you have these plethora of factors under control in your brewery. If there's anything to be learned from brewing there's always a synergy going on between all the factors that go in to make a good beer. The problem the gentleman above was having with his Weizenbock could be due to more than one factor as well. Trying to correct several at once would be his best bet, so that he hits the right ones with the next batch. However, as has been stated in other threads, in a brewpub setting, many of the factors that come into play may not have a chance to become very noticeable, because your beers are (or should be) drunk quickly with as little handling as possible between the lager tank and the customer. This is the great advantage of brewing in a brewpub, and the way beer should be enjoyed. Most of these problems become more obvious when beers are (filtered and) packaged but can still crop up while in the serving tank - their flavor stability and shelf-life are low. Perhaps you should take a few weeks and gather some tasting experience of your own in Bavaria and Bohemia to see what the beers are like in those regions, because there are outstanding beers and bad beers there as well, but a very large number of them, so it's easy to get an idea of what they're all about, because there aren't that many in the States (especially close to the South), and, as stated above, they're different anyway. Imported bottled lagers you can pretty much forget, except in a few cases.

All in all, this drives the point home that most beers are meant to be enjoyed fresh and as close to the brewery as possible. How fresh and properly-treated a customer receives his beer is a huge factor in how much he will like it. Even in Continental Europe in the traditional brewing regions, customers regularly receive old beer (primarily bottled - the danger with kegs is usually neglected lines). Bottled lager, even when kept cool and dark, really shouldn't be drunk after three months if you want to taste what the brewer intended his beer to taste like, regardless of the expiration date. For this reason, brewpubs are ideal for those who enjoy beer at its best (and healthiest for that matter).

[Bham Brewer]

I commend you on your success

I can assume by your comments that you didn't intend to sound combative, I regret that I took it that way. My apologies.

I suppose my point is that, ultimately, "it's what hits the glass that matters". Results, not process. The art of our science allows us to reach the same end through different variations of process/ingredients, and to take a rigid "this is right, this is wrong" stance is short sighted. I can certainly admit to having made that mistake myself... on more than one occasion. Sometimes it takes actually standing in the brewery, running your fingers through the malt etc. to diagnose a problem.

Now... how do we help with the Weizen Bock? hmm.. did we ever hear the final gravity on the beer? Yeast generation? How many batches were brewed with the recipe in question?... I'm sure there are other questions that need answering, but my mind is slipping...

[liammckenna]

Has anyone mentioned calibration of your temperature sensors?

A few degrees can make a huge difference here.

Good luck.

Pax.

Liam

[dickshindles]

Sorry, I knew I was forgeting something. F.G., 5.2P. 1st generation Bav. Heffe strain.

BTW, Crassbrauer, what are these "exceptions" in terms of continental brands that don't suffer. I would love to find a good imported heffe that is worth my dollar.

THanks for all of your input. Does mash time have anything to do with this?

Dear Liam,
thermometer calibrated?: check!

Thanks
Dicky

[Bham Brewer]

Sorry, I knew I was forgeting something. F.G., 5.2P. 1st generation Bav. Heffe strain.

BTW, Crassbrauer, what are these "exceptions" in terms of continental brands that don't suffer. I would love to find a good imported heffe that is worth my dollar.

THanks for all of your input. Does mash time have anything to do with this?

Dear Liam,
thermometer calibrated?: check!

Thanks
Dicky

If the F.G. was 5.2P I think you are probably kicking yourself in the butt for nothing. Frankly, that is about what I would have expected given the info I have. You are at roughly 75% apparent attenuation, right? Check with your yeast supplier and see if that fits the expected parameter of the yeast you used. If so, you may want to try to find a yeast with lower attenuation for next time.

Ok, ditch the dextrin malt next time and go 50/50 with the others. Which maltster's Dark Munich were you using? What was the Lovibond on it? 10? 15? 20?

[dickshindles]

10 lovibond. Here is the golden question, what is the ideal mash temp. given my situation?
I've been hearing that wheat beers, regardless of the body desired should never be mashed above 152.
Also, I've been thinking, Crassbrauer. If it's true that most modified malts take 5 minutes to mash, couldn't I mash in at a low temp., and let the sparge water naturally bring the mash up through the temp. zone you mentioned?

Just a thought

[Bham Brewer]

10 lovibond. Here is the golden question, what is the ideal mash temp. given my situation?
I've been hearing that wheat beers, regardless of the body desired should never be mashed above 152.
Also, I've been thinking, Crassbrauer. If it's true that most modified malts take 5 minutes to mash, couldn't I mash in at a low temp., and let the sparge water naturally bring the mash up through the temp. zone you mentioned?

Just a thought


10 L is a fairly typical degree for a Munich malt.. 8-10L is normal, and not what most would consider dark.

I have never heard anyone say anything about not mashing wheat above 152, I would be interested in hearing what the reasoning is. I have personally never had an issue mashing wheat malt at my standard of 158... I have done this for both German style wheat beers and American style. Using Wyeast 3068 I get apparent attenuation averaging on their low end at 73% or a bit less. Fermented cool, at about 65F you get a nice banana nose and less clove, which is my personal preference.

[Brett0424]

The weyermann dark munich is 8-10. It gives sort of a toasty character. Maybe you're thinking dark like a caramunich but it's a different malt.

[monkeybrewer]

I am very interested to know what people think of the idea of creating a mock step mash by mashing in cool and using the sparge water to bring the temp up to the various enzyme's optima. Sounds like a cool idea for those of us with out the ability to heat our mash. How about even doing mock step rests in the kettle (ie keep the run off at the beta optimum for a half hour and then bump up the temp to the alpha optimum until the sparge is mostly finish. These kind of sound like crazy ideas but maybe there is something here. Thoughts any one?
Cheers