malt vinegar

[Ray Mitteldorf]

We are thinking about making malt vinegar and I was wondering if anyone could point me towards a good resource (books or websites) with good detiled information.

[rudge75]

The guys at Spinnakers Brewpub In Victoria, BC have been making malt vinegar for quite some time. You may want to get ahold of them.

I've made it before from a mother culture I purchased from RJ Spagnol's. You simply pitched the culture into about a liter of uncarbonated beer & held the temperature at close to 30 C. for about 6 weeks. The container gets covered with a tight weave cheesecloth over the lid to avoid the fruit flies. After this time, you could step it up to another larger batch, or pour it off into bottles - leave it unpasteurized as it tastes better that way.

I know this is a little vague, but it's the best I can recall.

Happy Brewing,
Dave :)

[matt]

One or two searches on the internet for Malt vinegar and you will have enough information to keep you busy for awhile.
Very simple process, but if you are brewing, keep the vinegar making process away from the brewing!
other wise you will be making only vinegar!
matt

[wannabebrewer]

Ray,

There is an article on making malt vinegar in the September/October 97 issue of the New Brewer. It was written by Steve Fried (at that time, the head brewer at McGuire's Irish Pub and Brewery in Pensacola, FL) and is entitled "Craft Malt Vinegar". Although the article is only 3 pages long, it does go into a fair amount of detail. It covers the science behind the process, the Orleans Method of continuous bulk vinegar production, the methods of production used at McGuires, and how to get started with making vinegar in your own brewery.

Regards,

Jim

[pbc]

I used to make Vinegar for Spinnakers, using a bioreactor and barrel aging. It's a simple process, but very labour intensive, and needs to be done away fomr the brewery. The bioreactor was supplied by Jim Pryor, and was fairly inexpensive. If you want me to put me through to him, you can email me at phillipsbrewing@sprint.ca Good luck.

[BlenderCrab]

I realize this thread is pretty old, but I'm interested in the process of making malt vinegar. I looked through my collection of New Brewer magazines and September/October 1997 is missing Does anyone happen to have it?

Does anyone make malt vinegar and have any tips? I probably have the process itself down and a source for mother. I'm looking for info such as the OG of the wort and what type of pH that will produce. I'm probably looking to end up with 4%-6% acidity in the final product.

[beertje46]

I realize this thread is pretty old, but I'm interested in the process of making malt vinegar. I looked through my collection of New Brewer magazines and September/October 1997 is missing Does anyone happen to have it?

Does anyone make malt vinegar and have any tips? I probably have the process itself down and a source for mother. I'm looking for info such as the OG of the wort and what type of pH that will produce. I'm probably looking to end up with 4%-6% acidity in the final product.

Steven Fried with McGuire's in Pennsacola FL. used to make an awesome malt vinegar. Call him @ 904-433-6789. Tell Steven I said Hello.

[BlenderCrab]

Thank you for the idea, but unfortunately, Mr. Fried no longer works at McGuire's. The person who answered the phone didn't know anything about his whereabouts.

Does anyone else have any ideas about making malt vinegar? I've figured out the process I'm going to use (for better or for worse), but I need details considering the OG of the wort and figuring out the percentage of acid based on the pH of the final product. My high school and college chem classes are too far in the past to work it out -- but a push in the right direction might help to rekindle old studies (hopefully). If anyone happens to have a copy of New Brewer from September/October 1997, that would be aces. Or if anyone would have current contact information for Steven Fried, that would be bomb as well.

We brew a Bavarian-style dunkel that I think would make a great malt vinegar. I'm planning on pulling five gallons of wort during the runoff, boiling that without hops, and fermenting it with our fairly aggressive ale yeast, After that's done, I'm going to rack it off and introduce the bacteria starter and let it go to work. I'll likely use an aquarium pump (at least the first few days) to introduce air (and therefore oxygen) to the secondary fermentation to aid the bacteria. I understand that six weeks will produce a usable vinegar, and a few more months will make it smoother and more palatable. Luckily, I have lots of "away from brewery" space, so cross-contamination should not be an issue. Any other thoughts?

Thank you very much.

[rudge75]

Why go through the extra work of fermenting it out separately? Take your beer off a fermenter and then innoculate, oxygenate and wait. Keep it warm and you'll be all good.

I'm pretty sure the % alcohol is directly releated to % of acetic acid produced, as long as the mother ferments out all the alcohol, you should get 5% for a 5%a/v beer.

[beertje46]

Steve used to ferment his in small oak casks <10 gallon(?) I'm not sure if handled all of the production that way or had a couple display pieces.

I'll give Steve a call and see if I can direct him here.

Stay tuned!

[Greenbrewmonkey]

Hello folks,

Yes, I agree with rudge. Just rack off after fermentation and go. Percentage acid is fairly closely tied to percentage alc, as rudge also said.

You can buy titration tests from winery supply folks if you need to be exact, but in most cases the alcohol to acid numbers should be close enough. Vinegar should be at least 4% acid with most being in the 5 to 7% range. If your Dunkel has a higher alcohol content, consider diluting it to the alcohol / acid level you are after.

One question, as we embark on project vinegar here at Jolly Pumpkin, I am having a hard time finding a large enough starter culture. Anybody know where one could buy enough mother innoculant for seven to ten barrels?

Also, any one out there brewing any Kombucha?

Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales

[beertje46]

One question, as we embark on project vinegar here at Jolly Pumpkin, I am having a hard time finding a large enough starter culture. Anybody know where one could buy enough mother innoculant for seven to ten barrels?

Also, any one out there brewing any Kombucha?

Cheers,
Ron
Jolly Pumpkin Artisan Ales
There is a local guy doing a chai beverage with Kombucha at home. He buys new bottles from us.

[BlenderCrab]

Thanks for all of the replies. The main reason I don't want to pull off already fermented beer is because I don't want hops to be in the finished product. Although, I am not against experimenting with some hopped beers to make "beer vinegar." I understand there are some beer vinegars produced commercially in Germany, and likely elsewhere.

After having consulted with another local brewer with much, much more knowledge of molecular chemistry, I think I might have come up with (or rather he did), the best way of coming up with the percentage. He suggested measuring the ABW rather than ABV, and based conversion of alcohol to acetic acid (now I need to find out the attenuation of the acetobactor), we can come up with the the acetic acid by weight and then convert that back to volume. Sounds reasonable to me -- and I'll have learned something. I do think, however, that one molecule of O2 and one molecule of ethanol yields one molecule of acetic acid and one molecule of water, that it's reasonable to assume a 5% ABV beer would produce close to a 5% acetic acid vinegar.

beertje46, thank you so much, and I'll PM you with my personal contact information in case that's easier for Mr. Fried, if he's willing/able to help.

Greenbrewmonkey, I of course don't know what a proper "pitch rate" would be for an acetobactor, but I would imagine you could prop up a five gallon or 10 gallon batch and pitch it, and as long as you keep a steady oxygen supply, nature would take its course in due time. I'm simply going use a pint or quart of Bragg's organic raw unfiltered apple cider vinegar to start my my first culture, and continue to aerate with an aquarium pump (not pure oxygen) until I feel I've reached my target.

[JoeBrews]

You can't calculate finished acid content in a vinegar based upon how much alcohol you put in. You can estimate, but in the end the amount of acid will vary due to it being a biological process. You'll need to test it. With beer vinegars you should be careful as well (wine has a much higher alcohol content... so you can be safely assured that your well over the mark), as you need a minimum of 5 % acidity in vinegar to use it as a preservative (you don't want your customers getting botulism).
As far as pitch rate goes, its not nearly as important in brewing. What you're fermenting already contains alcohol which will kill off most other things. To speed fermentation though you want heat (80 degrees, maybe a lil warmer is ideal) and oxygen. Depending on your setup its also going to take much longer (so you might want to start with a lot more of braggs). I don't make large batches of vinegar, so I use what is most closely related to the Orleans method, with a good sized mother it will take a minimum of 4 months generally (but then again I don't supply constant oxygen etc.).
Using unhopped wort is a good idea, but anything that doesn't have a real hop bite should work as well (I like to use belgians).

[beertje46]

I just got off the phone with Steven Fried. I told him of this thread. He is going to register and get on sometime tonight.

[sky warrior]

Hello everybody!

My name is Steve Fried formerly from McGuire's. I used to do malt vinegar
there and David Pierce says there are folks on this forum that want to hear
from me. I'm at your service. If you can get a hold of my article from the
1997 Sept/Oct New Brewer that would be a start. I don't have it. I can
answer specific questions or if anyone wants the whole schmeal I can do a
brain dump in a page or two and send as an attachment.

Let me just say first that malt vinegar is doable but lot's of work and
not economically practical for a brewpub. If you like the uniqueness and
novelty...perhaps a gift shop item, go for it!

Steve

[BlenderCrab]

Steve, thanks so much for joining. It's good to have you. I guess I'm mostly to blame for your being dragged here, but unfortunately I could not find the article you wrote in New Brewer a while ago.

Anyway, I have worked out a process for making the vinegar, for better or for worse, and I really do just have a couple of specific questions. First, to make a vinegar that ends up being 5.0% acetic or a better, what OG should I start out with on the beer itself? Some have suggested that I should aim to ferment my initial wort to around 5% ABV to land near my target of 5% acid. Will this fly? Does the water molecule given off during the acetobactor fermentation throw it off that much? What would you suggest?

Also, how do you measure the percentage of acid? Is a titration kit the way to go? Any other ways you know of?

I was also wondering about aeration. I'm not going to use pure oxygen, but I would like boost the little guys along and help them get to work quickly in solution, so I was thinking about using an aquarium stone and introducing oxygen that way. Is there too much of a risk of oxidation? I'm guessing oxidized vinegar is as unpleasant as oxidized beer.

By the way, if you haven't read any of the previous posts, I'm planning on pulling off five gallons of unhopped wort, boiling it to sterilize, cooling to pitch an ale yeast, racking into secondary and introducing the bacteria culture (Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar with sediment), aerating as noted previously, waiting a few weeks, and hoping for the best. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks a bunch!

[sky warrior]

I think I might be able to help you out here.

Start out with fermented beer of 8% abv. I know the chemical equation would make you think that a 5% beer would yield a 5% acetic acid level but it doesn't.

Hops, from my experieince, was not a factor because the acetic acid totally overwhelms it. I used waste beer form kegging preferring amber, high alcohol
beer which would then be added to my vinegar generator.

Do a starter (of your starter) first to make sure the culture you're using is good. Buy a couple quarts of cheap, high alcohol malt liquor. Dump it in a bucket or pot warm and stir out the CO2 and stir in O2. Pour in your acetobacter culture, cover and let sit undisturbed for three or four days. A film or pellicle should form on the surface. This should become fairly thick and jelly like.

After a week, taste the vinegar. If it tastes super sour and the mother is firm enough to pick up, it's ready to add to your five gallons of beer. If not, wait
a bit.

Use warm beer and stir it a little. No need for further oxygenation. Just
cover with a cheesecloth or like material and leave it alone for a week.
A pellicle shoud be fully formed but it may be four to six weeks before the
alcohol has been all converted to acetic acid. It is slow but that is the
bulk or Orleans system.

If you want to go into serious production, you'll need a 50 gallon barrel
and I can address that later.

A wine tirtration kit will measure your acid but you need a sodium hydroxide
solution that is 10X stronger...you'll understand why if you try to titrate with
solution intended for wine.

One very important health note...

Use only glass, plastic, wood or stainless steel to come into contact with
your vinegar. The acid in the vinegar will react with most metals and harmful
metal ions could be dissolved in your vinegar.


Hope this helps,

Steve